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[00:00:07] Scott Benton: Hey everyone, Scott Benton here. How are you? I’m the host of the Classroom 2 Courtroom podcast where we help you easily transition from law school student into your professional career as an attorney and where we make the practice of law fun. And today we’re going to answer the question of how do you mine for case facts?
[00:00:25] Scott Benton: How do you mine for case facts?
[00:00:27] Scott Benton: [00:01:00] So there’s going to be two parts of this when it comes to mining for case facts and that’s going to be the why part of the equation and then there’s going to be the how part. This podcast episode is going to be a little bit more concerned with the how part of the mining for case facts process.
[00:01:33] Scott Benton: But since the why and the how really, they pretty much go together and they wouldn’t be able to exist without the other one, it’s important that when you start working on a case and as you begin to gather the case facts from your client, that you’re very clear on the why part of this. In order to get deep down into the how part and really, at the end of the day, produce those critical case [00:02:00] facts.
[00:02:00] Scott Benton: As for the why part, meaning, why do we mine for case facts? The problem is that you, early on, really don’t know enough about the case that you’re working on. in order to really work on it effectively and eventually carve out a victory. But when you mine for case facts and when you dig down deeply, and deeply into the client’s story, that’s when you start to get the case facts that ultimately you’re really going to need in order to meet the legal objectives that your client’s paying you for.
[00:02:32] Scott Benton: Now, as a hired gun, that’s you’re hired gun as an attorney where your skill set, even your reputations on the line, you’ve got a pretty strong incentive to go through the process of gaining as many of your case facts from your client. Now, some of these case facts are going to apply to the law. These are case facts that are going to appear in the courtroom or in the hearing in front of a judge.
[00:02:57] Scott Benton: And then other case facts. [00:03:00] They’re not going to apply to the law. But it doesn’t mean that you’re going to want to ignore those. Some case facts are going to be used as evidence. Others are really going to be used for Understanding what your client wants and what’s driving them. And those are background facts.
[00:03:16] Scott Benton: It’s what we call them at the law firm that I work at. And background facts are, they’re not going to be known really to anyone except for you and your client. The judge isn’t going to know I’m opposing counsel is not, they won’t know them. No one, but you and your client, these kinds of background facts these things that are really motivating your client.
[00:03:33] Scott Benton: It might, maybe your client wants to move across country or move to another country or buy a vacation home or maybe do some renovations in their house something whatever it is or put you know their daughter their son through law school like you and they need the money for that but those are background facts that you’re really not going to offer anybody but it is going to be something that you and your client are going to have an understanding about because it provides that [00:04:00] context in terms of understanding the drive But you want to remember that all the case facts in total, whether they’re useful to the law or not, if you’re just going to keep them between you and your client, that they’re all deeply important and they’re all going to help you prevail in the case that you’re working on.
[00:04:18] Scott Benton: Now with the why part out of the way, we want to circle back and we want to take a look at the how part of the process and how you need to understand. that there are going to be different levels of depth that you’re going to want to reach. There’s different levels of depth. So let’s start with the premise that case notes obtained during the initial consultation they’re simply not going to be adequate enough.
[00:04:44] Scott Benton: Not by a long shot. These are real kind of surface level notes that are not very complex. Generally. They don’t go as deeply as you really need to go at the point where the client has actually hired you. They help initially identify the case as being [00:05:00] viable and worthy of pursuit. But, once that’s out of the way, you now need to spend time drilling down into much deeper territory of the case.
[00:05:09] Scott Benton: And that’s where you’re going to be asking the client to retell their story with as much detail as possible.
[00:05:17] Scott Benton: Now, as they’re telling you the story, you’re going to find yourself saying things to them like, Tell me more about that. And you’re going to use these simple kind of open ended questions like, And then what happened?
[00:05:31] Scott Benton: Then where did you go? Then what did you do? Tell me a little bit more. Keep going, and then what? These are just open ended questions that you want to be armed with. It’s easy to forget them when you’re actually having a conversation with them, but open ended questions, just in general conversation is you want to have a few kind of go to phrases.
[00:05:53] Scott Benton: For me, I always use the, and then what happened? When someone is, telling me a story or they’re telling me, so they’re recounting [00:06:00] some incident that they were in I’ll often use. And then what happened just to keep them going to keep that story going? Because I want to hear more. I want to keep them engaged.
[00:06:08] Scott Benton: And then what happened? A lot of times people have this habit of. Wanting to keep their story short or realizing that they’re talking too much or talking for a really long time and they get a little self conscious. So when you use phrases that are open ended and then what did you do? And then what happened?
[00:06:27] Scott Benton: And then what did they say? That type of thing. How did they react? It keeps that story’s engine moving forward. So you want to ask questions. That will help the client include as much information as possible. You want to say, okay who was there? And you want to say things like. What was cooking on the stove when you were there?
[00:06:49] Scott Benton: And what did the food taste like at dinner? Was it good? What do you remember what the food was like? So you want to know about things like weather conditions and if it was hot or cold or [00:07:00] humid that day, or maybe it was raining. You want those small details because they’re important to bring up to the client.
[00:07:07] Scott Benton: Because they involve the five senses. Now, the five senses, they’re extremely powerful motivators for bringing someone back into their memories. It’s like when you’re walking around, let’s say you’re walking outside or you’re in the park or something, and suddenly you cross paths with a certain aroma like eucalyptus.
[00:07:27] Scott Benton: Or maybe patchouli or something like that, or it could be even like you walk by a Starbucks or a coffee house and you smell fresh coffee. It could even be the smell of somewhere else you walk by and it’s the smell of fresh paint. Any of those kind of smells or aromas that can suddenly trigger memories.
[00:07:49] Scott Benton: You want to ask them questions that involve their sense, all of their senses, not just the sense of smell, but in terms of aromas. Aromas can bring you directly into forgotten [00:08:00] memories. And that’s just one example. All your senses are gonna do that. They’re gonna bring you directly into specific memories and the client’s gonna have a better chance of be able to recall details that you’re not gonna really be able to get to any other way.
[00:08:14] Scott Benton: So you wanna try and involve. The five senses as much as possible. Now you can stop, you can also ask them about their feelings, for instance, because that’s a sense, right? And you can ask them about what they were hearing around them at the time of the incident that you’re exploring, or maybe what certain food or drinks looked like on the plate at the luncheon they attended.
[00:08:36] Scott Benton: Whatever the situation is, you want to repaint that picture using the five senses to help bring back those memories. Now, the idea that we like to use to illustrate how deeply to dig when you’re having these conversations and when you’re starting to get into those details at the law firm that I work for, we often say you want to go [00:09:00] three layers deep.
[00:09:00] Scott Benton: So you want to let the conversation want to keep looking for finer and finer distinctions, finer and finer details. of the story. And again, you can do that by citing the five senses. Bring what did it smell like? What did it taste like? What did it sound like? And what did you see? And the reason you want to do that is because the client at some point you want to go three layers deep because at some point the client is, they’re simply going to exhaust themselves.
[00:09:28] Scott Benton: You’re emptying their brain of all of these details because that’s what they’ve been holding inside about the case and you’re getting them out on the table in front of them in front of you. And even when that happens, when they’re fully exhausted, they’ve emptied their mind of all the case facts that they have and that they’ve been carrying around in their head.
[00:09:50] Scott Benton: You’re not going to stop there. You’re not going to stop because once their minds have been completely emptied, there’s now a vacuum that needs to be filled. And it’s like that old [00:10:00] saying that nature hates a vacuum because this is the moment in time and you might’ve talked to them for a couple of hours whatever it has taken to get them to just completely empty their brain.
[00:10:12] Scott Benton: They’re going to now, because nature hates a vacuum, they’re going to start to remember things they couldn’t possibly remember otherwise when they still had all of that information and all of that clutter inside their mind. So you’re providing room for them to fill that void, to fill that vacuum that has now been created by talking about the case so much.
[00:10:34] Scott Benton: And they’re going to remember critical details and all these case facts that have been, really, they’ve been hidden from even them. And really sometimes for a long time. So that’s it. And I hope that’s been helpful information as you continue to build your legal career. I’m Scott Benton. I’m the host of the Classroom 2 Courtroom podcast.
[00:10:53] Scott Benton: Thank you so much for listening. for this episode Now, if this is information that you’re enjoying, and you want to get an [00:11:00] alert every time we put out a new episode, you can go to our website, which is classroom2courtroom. com. That’s classroom, the number two, courtroom. com. You can leave us your contact information. When we put out a new episode, guess who gets notified?
[00:11:13] Scott Benton: You do. And if this is information that you’re enjoying, Definitely don’t forget to share and subscribe. I know that sounds a little cliche, but it does help get our information out there, especially if you’re enjoying what you’re hearing, especially if this is helping you prepare for your first job as an attorney.
[00:11:31] Scott Benton: And it will also help you stay on top of all of our newest episodes. And until next time, we hope you’ll join us here. And we also hope you’ll join us in making the world a better place, one client at a time. Thank you so much.
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